From yotambarnoy at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 19:05:41 2016 From: yotambarnoy at gmail.com (Yotam Barnoy) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:05:41 -0400 Subject: [ocaml-infra] Request to start a gitter.im room for github:ocaml/ocaml and a bridge to IRC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After surveying the opinions of people on IRC and discussions of advancing the community's interests on a mailing list thread ('How to encourage the adoption of OCaml'), I'd like to propose opening a room on gitter.im for the ocaml/ocaml repository (gitter rooms exist on a per-repository basis). An example gitter room can be viewed here: https://gitter.im/neovim/neovim In general, I believe having real-time chat with persistent history and notifications is extremely valuable. It is especially valuable for beginners or people inquiring about OCaml, who are afraid to compose a mailing list post. It is also valuable to developers of all sorts who need full-duplex high-frequency minimally-formal communication, which is often hampered by email. Gitter chat is readily available to newcomers, unlike IRC. Even the best current IRC viewer (https://vector.im/beta/#/room/#freenode_#ocaml:matrix.org) still requires steps to connect and lacks some of gitter's features. Gitter rooms are read-only before logging in (which is still of value), and read-write once you use a github login, which just about every dev has nowadays. Additionally, gitter allows for easy integration with github issues, comments etc as can be seen in the example above. The trickier part is connecting gitter to IRC. We want to do this both to preserve history on our own terms - scraper tools exist for gitter but it's nicer to preserve our own history using existing methods - and to prevent fracturing of the community. The neovim project linked-to above does this using a gitter-IRC bridge, which must be run on a community server. This means that to establish the gitter room + bridge we need to: 1. Create the gitter room on the gitter site. This must be done by someone with OCaml github credentials by going to the gitter.im page and choosing to create a room. 2. Follow the instructions at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-gitter using an OCaml community server. The bridge must have access to github credentials as well. 3. For maximum exposure, it would be nice to add the new room to the ocaml.org community page. Note that gitter rooms already exists for ocaml/oasis and ocaml/opam. These are obviously project-specific and have use by themselves. I envision ocaml/ocaml being used for the compiler as well as for the language as a whole. It's worth thinking about the idea of creating an ocaml/ocaml_beginners repo just for the sake of opening a gitter room for beginners, similar to the way we have a (non-working) ocaml_beginners list. Additionally, it would be a good idea to open a gitter room for ocamlbuild. From gabriel.scherer at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 19:34:12 2016 From: gabriel.scherer at gmail.com (Gabriel Scherer) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:34:12 -0400 Subject: [ocaml-infra] Request to start a gitter.im room for github:ocaml/ocaml and a bridge to IRC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Note: I asked to the #neovim folks about their experience, and they pointed out that we wouldn't need to setup our own bridge server, as described in the documentation that Yotam linked to, as they would be happy to add our potential gitter/irc pair to their own bidirectional replication server. (This discussion happened over IRC but you can have a look at the gitter logs for it: https://gitter.im/neovim/neovim?at=5783e51cb79455146f9664e5 ) I'm personally not very enthusiastic about gitter itself, but in presence of a bidirectional bridge I see no reason to not give it a try, so I would support the experiment -- it could start with an explicit time limit at which to reconsider the move, as we did for Github pull requests. On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Yotam Barnoy wrote: > After surveying the opinions of people on IRC and discussions of > advancing the community's interests on a mailing list thread ('How to > encourage the adoption of OCaml'), I'd like to propose opening a room > on gitter.im for the ocaml/ocaml repository (gitter rooms exist on a > per-repository basis). > > An example gitter room can be viewed here: https://gitter.im/neovim/neovim > > In general, I believe having real-time chat with persistent history > and notifications is extremely valuable. It is especially valuable for > beginners or people inquiring about OCaml, who are afraid to compose a > mailing list post. It is also valuable to developers of all sorts who > need full-duplex high-frequency minimally-formal communication, which > is often hampered by email. > > Gitter chat is readily available to newcomers, unlike IRC. Even the > best current IRC viewer > (https://vector.im/beta/#/room/#freenode_#ocaml:matrix.org) still > requires steps to connect and lacks some of gitter's features. Gitter > rooms are read-only before logging in (which is still of value), and > read-write once you use a github login, which just about every dev > has nowadays. Additionally, gitter allows for easy integration with > github issues, comments etc as can be seen in the example above. > > The trickier part is connecting gitter to IRC. We want to do this both > to preserve history on our own terms - scraper tools exist for gitter > but it's nicer to preserve our own history using existing methods - > and to prevent fracturing of the community. The neovim project > linked-to above does this using a gitter-IRC bridge, which must be run > on a community server. > > This means that to establish the gitter room + bridge we need to: > 1. Create the gitter room on the gitter site. This must be done by > someone with OCaml github credentials by going to the gitter.im page > and choosing to create a room. > 2. Follow the instructions at > https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-gitter using an OCaml > community server. The bridge must have access to github credentials as > well. > 3. For maximum exposure, it would be nice to add the new room to the > ocaml.org community page. > > Note that gitter rooms already exists for ocaml/oasis and ocaml/opam. > These are obviously project-specific and have use by themselves. I > envision ocaml/ocaml being used for the compiler as well as for the > language as a whole. It's worth thinking about the idea of creating an > ocaml/ocaml_beginners repo just for the sake of opening a gitter room > for beginners, similar to the way we have a (non-working) > ocaml_beginners list. Additionally, it would be a good idea to open a > gitter room for ocamlbuild. > _______________________________________________ > Infrastructure mailing list > Infrastructure at lists.ocaml.org > http://lists.ocaml.org/listinfo/infrastructure > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adrien at notk.org Mon Jul 11 19:42:37 2016 From: adrien at notk.org (Adrien Nader) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:42:37 +0200 Subject: [ocaml-infra] Request to start a gitter.im room for github:ocaml/ocaml and a bridge to IRC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160711184237.GA23427@notk.org> Hi, How are op and moderation features handled? How are the gitter users differentiated? Who has such rights on the gitter room? Just to be clear: the lack of need for moderation of #ocaml is exceptionally rare and such changes can impact the current balance at least at first so I want to make sure we won't have to discover the procedures in an emergency. -- Adrien Nader From gabriel.scherer at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 19:55:27 2016 From: gabriel.scherer at gmail.com (Gabriel Scherer) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:55:27 -0400 Subject: [ocaml-infra] Request to start a gitter.im room for github:ocaml/ocaml and a bridge to IRC In-Reply-To: <20160711184237.GA23427@notk.org> References: <20160711184237.GA23427@notk.org> Message-ID: My understanding is that the bridge logs one IRC user per gitter user (the nick is derived from the github username, so it's longer than usual IRC nicknames), but has a single gitter user/bot that says " on Freenode: ", as you can see in the logs. I would thus guess that moderation may need cooperation from both sides -- a troll on IRC needs to be silenced on IRC, and a troll on gitter to use gitter's moderation feature, whatever they are. If this turned to be a problem, we could cut the bridge. I would definitely consider a requirement that someone volunteers to perform gitter-side administration and moderation duties. On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Adrien Nader wrote: > Hi, > > How are op and moderation features handled? How are the gitter users > differentiated? Who has such rights on the gitter room? > > Just to be clear: the lack of need for moderation of #ocaml is > exceptionally rare and such changes can impact the current balance at > least at first so I want to make sure we won't have to discover the > procedures in an emergency. > > -- > Adrien Nader > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anil at recoil.org Mon Jul 11 20:22:46 2016 From: anil at recoil.org (Anil Madhavapeddy) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:22:46 +0100 Subject: [ocaml-infra] Request to start a gitter.im room for github:ocaml/ocaml and a bridge to IRC In-Reply-To: References: <20160711184237.GA23427@notk.org> Message-ID: I'd be happy to set up a small VM or container for the purposes of the bridge. From an infrastructure perspective, I just need a reliable point of contact in case of abuse, and some assurance that the service will be moderated reasonably. I'd prefer not to share other projects' servers if possible, as this leads to a tangled mess quite quickly (especially in this day and age when webhooks are all the rage and establish dependencies quite fast). Anil > On 11 Jul 2016, at 19:55, Gabriel Scherer wrote: > > My understanding is that the bridge logs one IRC user per gitter user (the nick is derived from the github username, so it's longer than usual IRC nicknames), but has a single gitter user/bot that says " on Freenode: ", as you can see in the logs. > > I would thus guess that moderation may need cooperation from both sides -- a troll on IRC needs to be silenced on IRC, and a troll on gitter to use gitter's moderation feature, whatever they are. If this turned to be a problem, we could cut the bridge. > > I would definitely consider a requirement that someone volunteers to perform gitter-side administration and moderation duties. > > On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Adrien Nader wrote: > Hi, > > How are op and moderation features handled? How are the gitter users > differentiated? Who has such rights on the gitter room? > > Just to be clear: the lack of need for moderation of #ocaml is > exceptionally rare and such changes can impact the current balance at > least at first so I want to make sure we won't have to discover the > procedures in an emergency. > > -- > Adrien Nader > > _______________________________________________ > Infrastructure mailing list > Infrastructure at lists.ocaml.org > http://lists.ocaml.org/listinfo/infrastructure From yotambarnoy at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 00:27:20 2016 From: yotambarnoy at gmail.com (Yotam Barnoy) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:27:20 -0400 Subject: [ocaml-infra] Request to start a gitter.im room for github:ocaml/ocaml and a bridge to IRC In-Reply-To: References: <20160711184237.GA23427@notk.org> Message-ID: Something that just occurred to me is that trolling on the gitter side is unlikely. This is because to participate in the conversation, one needs to log in using a github account, and trolls would be potentially ruining their github reputation (which relies on stars and such). This is unlike IRC trolls, who can connect anonymously and switch nicknames ad nauseum. Regardless, I'd be willing to monitor the gitter room if that is ok with the infrastructure team. Since I am disconnected from the Internet some of the time though, having another moderator would be a good idea. -Yotam On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:22 PM, Anil Madhavapeddy wrote: > I'd be happy to set up a small VM or container for the purposes of the bridge. From an infrastructure perspective, I just need a reliable point of contact in case of abuse, and some assurance that the service will be moderated reasonably. > > I'd prefer not to share other projects' servers if possible, as this leads to a tangled mess quite quickly (especially in this day and age when webhooks are all the rage and establish dependencies quite fast). > > Anil > >> On 11 Jul 2016, at 19:55, Gabriel Scherer wrote: >> >> My understanding is that the bridge logs one IRC user per gitter user (the nick is derived from the github username, so it's longer than usual IRC nicknames), but has a single gitter user/bot that says " on Freenode: ", as you can see in the logs. >> >> I would thus guess that moderation may need cooperation from both sides -- a troll on IRC needs to be silenced on IRC, and a troll on gitter to use gitter's moderation feature, whatever they are. If this turned to be a problem, we could cut the bridge. >> >> I would definitely consider a requirement that someone volunteers to perform gitter-side administration and moderation duties. >> >> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Adrien Nader wrote: >> Hi, >> >> How are op and moderation features handled? How are the gitter users >> differentiated? Who has such rights on the gitter room? >> >> Just to be clear: the lack of need for moderation of #ocaml is >> exceptionally rare and such changes can impact the current balance at >> least at first so I want to make sure we won't have to discover the >> procedures in an emergency. >> >> -- >> Adrien Nader >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Infrastructure mailing list >> Infrastructure at lists.ocaml.org >> http://lists.ocaml.org/listinfo/infrastructure > > _______________________________________________ > Infrastructure mailing list > Infrastructure at lists.ocaml.org > http://lists.ocaml.org/listinfo/infrastructure From yotambarnoy at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 15:48:12 2016 From: yotambarnoy at gmail.com (Yotam Barnoy) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 14:48:12 -0000 Subject: [ocaml-infra] Request to start a gitter.im room for github:ocaml/ocaml and a bridge to IRC Message-ID: After surveying the opinions of people on IRC and discussions of advancing the community's interests on a mailing list thread ('How to encourage the adoption of OCaml'), I'd like to propose opening a room on gitter.im for the ocaml/ocaml repository (gitter rooms exist on a per-repository basis). An example gitter room can be viewed here: https://gitter.im/neovim/neovim In general, I believe having real-time chat with persistent history and notifications is extremely valuable. It is especially valuable for beginners or people inquiring about OCaml, who are afraid to compose a mailing list post. It is also valuable to developers of all sorts who need full-duplex high-frequency minimally-formal communication, which is often hampered by email. Gitter chat is readily available to newcomers, unlike IRC. Even the best current IRC viewer (https://vector.im/beta/#/room/#freenode_#ocaml:matrix.org) still requires steps to connect and lacks some of gitter's features. Gitter rooms are read-only before logging in (which is still of value), and read-write once you use a github login, which just about every dev has nowadays. Additionally, gitter allows for easy integration with github issues, comments etc as can be seen in the example above. The trickier part is connecting gitter to IRC. We want to do this both to preserve history on our own terms - scraper tools exist for gitter but it's nicer to preserve our own history using existing methods - and to prevent fracturing of the community. The neovim project linked-to above does this using a gitter-IRC bridge, which must be run on a community server. This means that to establish the gitter room + bridge we need to: 1. Create the gitter room on the gitter site. This must be done by someone with OCaml github credentials by going to the gitter.im page and choosing to create a room. 2. Follow the instructions at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-gitter using an OCaml community server. The bridge must have access to github credentials as well. 3. For maximum exposure, it would be nice to add the new room to the ocaml.org community page. Note that gitter rooms already exists for ocaml/oasis and ocaml/opam. These are obviously project-specific and have use by themselves. I envision ocaml/ocaml being used for the compiler as well as for the language as a whole. It's worth thinking about the idea of creating an ocaml/ocaml_beginners repo just for the sake of opening a gitter room for beginners, similar to the way we have a (non-working) ocaml_beginners list. Additionally, it would be a good idea to open a gitter room for ocamlbuild.